We were presented with updated CHS and Dodd athletic budget reports and fee options. The reports break out the actual cost by activity and include scenarios for a Tiered and Fixed fee for each activity.
Extra-curricular cost summary:
High School Activities $670,000
High School Music $107,000
(Band, Color Guard, Orchestra, Chorus, etc.)
Middle School Athletics $108,000
High School Clubs/Organizations $ 80,000
Total $965,000
John Kuhner presented the finance committee with a report from the CHS Band Parents Association that details the amount of money that the association contributes to the music programs above and beyond what's covered in the budget. (thank you John). The BPA currently contributes $94,000 towards these programs through donations, fees, auctions, etc. Also, in additon to the participation fee, band participants pay an additonal fee up to $500 each.
The current participation fee is $100 and is used to offset the costs listed above. The fee is charged for participants in middle school and high school athletics and for participants in the HS marching band and color guard. The fee generates approximately $100K.
Option: Elimination of Program*:
High School Athletics: $670,000 less current fee $70,000 = $600,000
Middle School Athletics: $108,000 less current fee $20,000 = $88,000
Marching Band Color Guard: $65,000 less current fee $10,000 = $55,000
High School Clubs/Activities: $80,000 no fee = $80,000
Other Music Programs $42,000 no fee = $42,000
* This option represents a significant reduction in programs.
Additional Options Discussed:
- Increase the Fee under the existing structure. Incrementally, every $100 added to the fee would generate $100,000.
- Extend the fee to all programs not current covered by the fee. This would be difficult because of the range, scope and cost of the variety of clubs/activities not covered by the current fee.
- Create a club & activity fee for each student involved in any extracurricular (non-athletic/music) of $25 per club activity.
- Create a full pay to play model based on the actual cost of the sport of activity.
- Develop a tiered system for the fees based on the relative cost of the program.
CHS Athletic Budget - Cost Breakdown / Tiered / Fixed Fee Analysis
Dodd Middle School Athletic Budget - Cost Breakdown / Tiered / Fixed Fee Analysis
Dodd Middle School - Elimination of Youth Program Sports Analysis
Fee Options for Reducing Expenditures or Increasing Fee Revenue
After being presented with these options/analysis the finance committee wrapped up the discussion on these costs. No motion was made at this time. Depending on the reduction to the budget, we may see a significant fee increase and/or elimination of program.
The BOE Finance committee is holding a workshop meeting 7:30am 2/24 in the Humiston Board Room. This is a working meeting between the committee and administration to study physical space capacity at our elementary schools. Other topics to be discussed throughout the course of the finance committee meetings are:
- Cost Savings, or excess costs, associated with closing Darcey and moving the K classes to the other elementary schools.
- Feasibility of phasing out grade levels from Chapman to the other elementary schools.
- Feasibility in consolidating our maintenance department with the town's maintenance dept.
- Elective course costs/enrollment at CHS.
- Parking fee at CHS
39 comments:
In relation to the turf, do your numbers reflect the projected increase of $25,000 (or so) of annual revenue related to it?
"In relation to the turf, do your numbers reflect the projected increase of $25,000 (or so) of annual revenue related to it?"
No because any additional revenue being generated for field replacement is not going to cover athletic expenses listed. The topic of turf will be on a finance committee agenda soon. We need to setup policies and an accounting process and reports (not to mention an account) to capture field revenue targeted towards replacement costs.
On a side note, I did receive numbers on how much revenue is generated now for athletics. I don't recall the number but I will post the detail.
Thanks for the quick response. And at the risk of stating the obvious, those revenues are contingent on the existence of team sports and the occurence of events.
If the teams and events are eliminated, the revenue disappears... but the crumb rubber will presumably continue deteriorating over the years.
So while the BOE may decide to eliminate some sports next year... the idea that all CHS sports would be eliminated does't seem realistic to me... at least not if the turf moves forward.
I don't want you to research anything, but off the top of your head do you happen to recall which sports and / or events are expected to be revenue generators for the turf (above and beyond historic levels)?
Also, with regard to the option of raising fees a considerable amount vs. eliminating extracurriculars...
From the perspective of kids who hope to continue their education, I hope the administration considers what universities will view more favorably...
a) kids who didn't participate in extracurriculars in high school because no extracurriculars existed
or
b) kids who didn't participate in extracurriculars because they couldn't afford them.
I think the answer to that question should be considered by the BOE as you deliberate your options.
Sorry... s/h said... hope the admin investigates what uni's view favorably and the BOE considers it.
During a trip to Hartford this past week I saw Trinity College plowing off their artificial turf field. There has never been a mention of this for our field, nor has a cost been put in place to cover this additional cost. They were using a skid steer, these are not cheap. What is the plan, is our turf field going to be plowed?
"During a trip to Hartford this past week I saw Trinity College plowing off their artificial turf field. There has never been a mention of this for our field, nor has a cost been put in place to cover this additional cost. They were using a skid steer, these are not cheap. What is the plan, is our turf field going to be plowed?"
PVC plastic pipe cut in half length-wise, fitted over a plow blade using our existing equipment. But it remains to be seen if the field is going to be actually used during the winter months, especially during periods of large amounts of snowfall.
"If the teams and events are eliminated, the revenue disappears... but the crumb rubber will presumably continue deteriorating over the years"
Too Funny...the loss in revenue will be offset by the decrease in expenses related to fewer events if you subtract school sporting events
Benefit of turf fields in winter is that they are easy to clear as Tony described, and don't need covering. Can't plow a soft grass field without tearing it to pieces. You can use turf fields well into the cold months and early season as they don't freeze hard like grass. New England colleges are starting their outdoor lax seasons now. If the town puts it in, whomever is in charge should aggresively seek ways to promote it's use (raise $$) during periods when CHS fields would typically be unplayable. Think outside the box. Does QU need extra access to prep for spring seasons? Other organizations?
There's still more basic questions:
1) Will any extracurriculars continue to exist?
2) If all extracurriculars are eliminated, does it make sense to install turf?
"Tim White said...
There's still more basic questions:
1) Will any extracurriculars continue to exist?
2) If all extracurriculars are eliminated, does it make sense to install turf?"
I don't think anyone is seriously considering eliminating all extracurruculars, though numbers and cost will have to be addressed. Take away all extra-curricular and "elective" classes such as APs, and anyone with hopes of attending a more competitive college would have to leave the district. "Strength of schedule" and activities beyond the classroom are the main criteria for selective colleges where everyone applying has a high GPA.
The real issue is far more complex than just the school budget. Cheshire will be caught in a cycle of population decline with fewer families considering the town as an option, and as a result fewer business opportunities to offset the tax burden. An aging population demanding services that compete with education for $$ will continue to face rising property tax $$$ as federal, state and business taxes decline. This years school budget, next years..., it's a moot point unless the town decides to focus on a long term strategy to address a multitude of issues, including maintaining a most competitive school system, keeping the town affordable for families, and addressing a core issue, shifting the tax burden away from private citizens by encouraging growth. Without some forward thinking, long term approaches, we will be rehashing these same arguments until Cheshire resembles Ansonia.
6:43PM: Installing a turf field without "real funding" when the BOE is considering cutting out some athletics/activities and possibly facing a 2mil deficit is thinking outside the box.
Tony,
Why not consider dropping AP classes instead of activities? Have you looked into the savings there?
There is no real cost saving to dropping AP classes. These students would just end up in regular sections of a similar class taught by the same teacher. There are not teachers that exclusively teach AP. For example, a student in AP Physics B would end up taking regular Level 1 Physics instead creating an additional section of that course. Just like with AP British Literature. These students would end up in an alternative L1 British Literature. Cutting AP doesn't solve anything it just hurts students transcripts and college applications.
Is this a BOE (board of education or a BOA (board of athletics)?
"Tony,
Why not consider dropping AP classes instead of activities? Have you looked into the savings there?"
We're looking into the course schedule at CHS. The cost savings associated with the possibility of eliminating AP courses is of course (no pun intended) teaching positions.
I picked two examples for the master schedule at CHS:
First example, I picked AP Chemistry at CHS. Max capacity is 24 students with 20 students enrolled in it for the school year.
The teacher assigned to it, let's call this Teacher A, also teachers another AP chemistry course (16 students enrolled, 24 max) as well as two level 1 Chemistry classes and is an advisor for grade 11.
Eliminating AP Chemistry, in this case, does not save anything...perhaps the costs of textbooks and supplies for the 36 students? Considering that enrollment is very good for this AP course and that this course offers academic benefits to these AP students...why eliminate it?
Example 2: I picked AP French (World Lang). Max capacity is 24 students...only 2 are enrolled for the year. The teacher, Teacher B, also teaches two L1 French 2 classes, 2 L1 French 3 classes, L1 French 4, and L1 French 5.
At first glance, due to the extremely low enrollment in AP French (2 students)...my initial thought is do we really need it? If it were eliminated, what would we be saving? As Teacher B is pretty busy teaching other world lang classes that have very good enrollment. But the AP French class makes me wonder if we should be offering it due to it's low enrollment. (No, it doesn't mean I'm against languages for French for that matter :-), just putting the thought out there.
This is my dollars and cents view but that's only one consideration. The other consideration I'd have to look at is academic capital. Are these courses providing the academic capital these students need to succeed in their college studies in Chemistry and languages? I would think so if these AP courses support the career paths of these students.
I will post more information seperately about the AP courses. But at first glance, I see very solid enrollment in the AP courses (except for French) and the AP teachers also teach other L1 and L2 courses. I don't see headcount savings.
That being said and barring further in-dept analysis...I have to question what the benefit would be in eliminating AP courses?
I would rather look first towards electives that don't support core curriculum. And one finance committee member has raised this and I expect discussion on it soon.
"Why not consider dropping AP classes instead of activities? Have you looked into the savings there?"
Tony: Of all the ideas for cost savings this is by far the worst.
Having field hockey or marching band is more important than preparing our students for college? The students who take AP courses are better prepared for college and often need those courses just to get accepted into competitive colleges. Eliminating those courses will just force those students to take more courses that are less challenging and less applicable to college. 94%of CHS students go on to college. Exploring ways to make them LESS prepared should not be something the BOE is "looking into". Your time is better spent exploring other options that do not directly impact academics.
"I picked AP French (World Lang). Max capacity is 24 students...only 2 are enrolled for the year. The teacher, Teacher B, also teaches two L1 French 2 classes, 2 L1 French 3 classes, L1 French 4, and L1 French 5."
That means that the teacher is teaching 7 classes then. CHS teachers are only paid for 6. Is this teacher teaching the 2 AP students within the one of the other classes? Seems to me we are getting more than our money's worth there!
Tony said:
First example, I picked AP Chemistry at CHS. Max capacity is 24 students
and
Example 2: I picked AP French (World Lang). Max capacity is 24 students
Who (or what) defines "max" ?
Was it defined during the union collective bargaining process?
Is it a state mandate?
Is it the Superintendent's choice?
Maybe it's fire code?
I think it's a potentially critical point that warrants further elaboration if this discourse is to be as productive as possible. And GF shoulda been able to answer that question by now. I think I may have raised it here as far back as December.
timtalkstotonyandtonytalkstotim.com
Thanks for the AP info everyone...doesnt sound like a place to get much savings.
"I think it's a potentially critical point that warrants further elaboration if this discourse is to be as productive as possible. And GF shoulda been able to answer that question by now. I think I may have raised it here as far back as December."
You have a valid question and I think the facts should be made clear and they will. I intend to post a seperate, detailed topic on AP courses along with details about class size determinzation. Be patient. :-)
But for the Chemistry example I picked, physical classroom space is one factor but I've found that a bigger factor is lab space for each student. If there are only 24 lab stations/seats then 24 is the max. And these rules vary among the curriculum, naturally, tailored to the courses' specific needs. Physical space capacity is but only one factor and I will post more details on this soon. Suffice it to say, there's doesn't appear to be a one-size-fits-all formula for class size.
Stay tuned...
I figured the lab requirements would be prohibitive for science AP classes. But I don't see how that would apply to foreign languages, social studies, english, math, etc.
But since you haven't indicated that it's part of the collective bargaining agreement... and since K-8 don't seem to have any state mandates covering the student / teacher ratio... I'm guessing that lab requirements are more the exception regarding "max" class sizes at CHS... and that the "max" is more a Sptd rule than anything else. And if that's the case, then I strongly disagree with it's use.
Perhaps it'd be easier to speak in general terms... is "max" generally a word defined by GF?
Tim,
When was the last time you were in a high school classroom or any public school classroom? Don't you think that the education professionals might have a better sense of what is a realistic number of students in a class than you? If I was going to take advice on how big classes should be at CHS I think I would listen to Dr. Florio or anyone actually in the education field before you. Besides you gave up your role in determining how big classes should be so I really doubt many people care what you think anymore. Many of us never did.
But since you bring it up, how big were your classes when you were in High School? HS is not college and the students of today are not the students of 5, 10 or even 20 years ago. Its unrealistic to think that when you place a large number of kids in one place the classroom environment is going to be one that is the most conducive all students being able to learn especially with all of the in class modifications and accommodations that need to be made under modern special education laws.
Also, when the CHS teachers agreed to teach 6 classes many years ago, one of the things that was part of the goal was to keep class size smaller. Thats why it was agreed to. There are probably only two or three other schools in the whole state where teachers teach 6 classes. If you keep adding students to the six classes your just further decreasing the amount of 1 on 1 instructional attention each student receives. If you add 5 students to every one of those six classes you have essentially given each teacher an entire extra section worth of students. Who is that fair to? the teacher? the students? To me it doesn't seem fair to anyone.
So I don't think you, who are not an educational professional, should go about proposing increasing class size or anything else for that matter. You are no expert. Do you also go about telling your doctor how to treat your illness or your lawyer how to plead your case? I do not think you do so I don't think you should be telling the educational professionals what is best for the students of this town.
So bad hair day doesn't like the word 'max' because it's a superintendent rule... The Superintendent of schools can't make up rules for 'max'. I guess in bad hair day logic that makes sense somewhere in haiti.
7:00pm said:
I really doubt many people care what you think anymore. Many of us never did.
But considering your thoughtful answer, you apparently do. ;) So I'll elaborate for you...
Defining "max" isn't a concern for only me. I suspect it may be a concern for most voters.
Tony continues referring to "max" class size, but he's a volunteer and has not yet had the time to explain. Regardless, if it's defined by something beyond the BOEs control, then the word is properly used IMO. But if it's a word defined by either the BOE or Sptd, then "max" can change. Some voters may want to see "max" decreased to 20. Some may want to see it increased to 30. My primary goal is to determine if it is a valid concern for the voters in November.
If "max" is defined by the BOE (or falls within their control), then the voters should be afforded that knowledge... and be able to consider it when they vote.
"Also, when the CHS teachers agreed to teach 6 classes many years ago, one of the things that was part of the goal was to keep class size smaller. "
I think class size should be primarily determined by the capabilities/performance of the individual teacher. Effective teachers should be able to teach larger class sizes. The next contract should be a pay for performance contract, no tenure rules and no automatic step increases. Increases should be based on individual performance. Cull out the bottom 10% of the under-achieving teachers and rewards the top 10%. That's the real world learn it, love it. Implement this and watch how creative the teacher's become with larger class sizes.
As for class sizes being defined in the contract, it's not. The contract simply states "reasonable" class sizes. I know, I asked the boe during the budget meeting.
So let's not use the excuse that the reason class size must be small is because of the contract. It's not true.
And why are teacher's getting 15 paid sick days per school year Sep - June? Especially with fall, winter, pre-spring, spring and umpteen other vacations during the school year?
But since you bring it up, how big were your classes when you were in High School?
I don't recall exactly. AP Bio was probably only a dozen or so. Chem lab was in the science lecture hall and although we didn't fill it up, we probably came close to filling it. French III was under 20. French I was probably 25. I don't remember actual student numbers for the most part. But I did recently attend my 20th reunion and looked through a lot of old photos from Norton.
We had our sixth grade class picture with Mr. V and Ms. Mitleighner. Although I could only recall the names of about 45 of us, there were 50 kids in the two classes... the same fifty kids in the same two classes from 1st grade thru 6th grade. I don't recall my kindergarten class that well. I was so young and since I skipped readiness, basically all the kids in my K class were different from my 1st grade class.
Actually... thinking about what I just wrote... I know we had two classes for 4th thru 6th... and I remember basically all the same kids on the playground... but I really don't remember how many classes we had in 1st grade... tho I'm pretty sure 2nd and 3rd both had the 50 (give or take) of us split in two classes.
Let's lay off the personal takes please.
"Tony continues referring to "max" class size, but he's a volunteer and has not yet had the time to explain. "
Tim, "Max Class Size" is defined by the administration and takes various inputs to determine "max". The BOE can influence max class size in different ways. Consolidating schools and shifting students to existing classes in other schools changes max class size for those classrooms impacted. Teacher layoffs impacts class size. The BOE could certainly vote to increase class sizes as they see fit.
The BOE discusses and listens to class size recommendations from the administration. Asst Superintendent Scott Dietrick is the most knowledgeable authority on our class size rules. But the BOE can certainly influence class size as it sees fit although most on the BOE relies on the administration's expertise and input on the topic.
So the short answer is that yes the BOE can and does influence class sizes. I will post more detail on this, it's just a matter of making time here as I'm focusing on the budget at this time but this detail will certainly come out through the budget process at the very least.
In fact, next Thursday at 6:30pm (Dodd) the finance committee will be discussing it's findings about school consolidation(s)and what that will do to class sizes. We had an interesting workshop on the topic this morning and class sizes were discussed at length.
7:00pm... as for me not being an education professional, you're right. And while I respect and appreciate teachers (I think most of mine were great), I certainly hope elected officials don't take direction from their staff. I think they should consider input from staff. But the important concern should be the voters.
It's upsetting to me whenever I conclude an elected official has stopped representing the people to the government and begins representing the government to the people.
For me, the most glaring case of this was the Wall Street Bailout.
Thanks Tony. And sorry if you thought I was getting personal. Usually I'm consciously trying to avoid anything like that.
FWIW, I think it'd be more appropriate to refer to a "desired" class size, rather than a "max" class size.
" I certainly hope elected officials don't take direction from their staff. I think they should consider input from staff. But the important concern should be the voters."
What a joke Tim. What about the voters that think that class sizes are already too high? Oh just ignore them. The only voters that are important are the ones that think taxes should never go up, the heck with everyone else.
Nice.
What about the voters that think that class sizes are already too high? Oh just ignore them. The only voters that are important are the ones that think taxes should never go up, the heck with everyone else.
I never said that and I didn't imply it.
FWIW, in the past seven years there have been 19 Council members. Of the 19, 18 have voted to raise taxes (and cut spending) at least once.
Who hasn't?
Patti Flynn Harris
And she has not yet voted on the annual budget.
Suggest an organization like the Band parents is formed for each extracurricular organization with responsibility to manage that particular activity. Each individual group would provide leadership, develop bylaws and accounting system that would manage a pay to play for each group. If the group uses the sports fields then a portion of their collected revenue is submitted to the overall account of providing funding for the turf field replacement. I believe the bases of the organization already exists with the Boosters Club and the Band parents. Expand the idea to all extracurricular activities, set up a Board of Directors to oversee the entire function. Privatize the activities and allow those that want to participate through however they see fit. The time has come not to continue to burden those in the community with financial support of athletics and other activities related to the school system.
Tony,
I hope they didn't scare you away from posting on this blog. We need you to keep us informed.
Please come back.
"Tony,
I hope they didn't scare you away from posting on this blog. We need you to keep us informed.
Please come back."
LOL, no...I don't scare easily and can't keep quiet anyway...if that bothers some...don't read my blog. :-)
I'm writing up new/updates topics today and will post more over the weekend. Between BOE business/finance, work, school, family, phone calls..I haven't been able to post. I have the day off today and spending the time updating the blog.
Tony said,
"Between BOE business/finance, work, school, family, phone calls..I haven't been able to post. I have the day off today and spending the time updating the blog."
I don't always agree with your POV, but appreciate the time and effort you put into the blog. Thanks!
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